No words
One of the most moving pieces of television for a long time: Jerry Springer in Who Do You Think You Are, visiting this simple but haunting holocaust memorial in Lodz in Poland, the ghetto from which his maternal grandmother was transported to a concentration camp by the Nazis in 1942. Marie Kallman was sent to the Chelmno camp in May of that year, where she was killed, one of the first victims of the Final Solution. Springer was left alone to contemplate all this, but his mic was still on and we heard his sobs. There was a lot of history in this moment. It is thought that 153,000 Jews, Gypsies and Soviet prisoners of war were killed at Chelmno. I'm currently reading a biography of Diana Mosley, the Hitler-loving Fascist Mitford sister. It all fits together.
posted by Andrew Collins @ 11:14 PM
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Without meaning to sound moronic, what do you mean it all fits together? Was she deluded or evil?
What I mean is that I'm reading a book about a member of the English aristocracy who embraced Hitler and fascism in the 1930s, including anti-semitism, and that fits together with this moving story of actual people actually abused, terrorised and killed by that very same regime. I'm not sure there's space for a discussion of what constitutes "evil", but it's fascinating to me, reading books on the period, how "acceptable" anti-Semitism was among the English aristocracy. When Diana and her sister Unity were swept off their feet by Hitler in the early 30s and visited Munich and Berlin like groupies, it was not an outrage. They even convinced their parents and brother to visit, all of whom became late converts to Hitlerism, and then, once war broke out, everything changed. The 1930s remains a gripping period of European history and I'm working my way through it. The Springer programme came at an opportune time: you don't read much about the Holocaust in the Mitford books.
One of the most moving things I've watched in a long time. I'd never really thought too much of Jerry Springer before, but thought he came across very well in this programme. It's almost impossible to contemplate that only seventy short years ago, these people were being herded around like cattle and exterminated. How could this be allowed to happen? Almost unimaginable that somewhere along the line, the soldiers on the ground doing this didn't stop and say "Hang on, this is abominable".
The scene shown in your photo was heart-breaking.
Is it correct to assume then that all of Europe was seduced by Hitler's charisma at that time?
Looking at it from this point in time, I tend to have the opinion that Diana Mitford was a silly girl more interested in glamorous lifestyles than ethics, but it's hard to imagine being a woman in the 30s.
I can't imagine being in a society that accepted things that are so unacceptable (as opposed to the things we can happily be appalling about now, Poles for example), but what baffles me most is how an individual couldn't see for themselves what was wrong and just took that it was acceptable because noone criticised. Is that ignorance about the "bad things" or was it simply socially acceptable?
I'll curtail the rant on today's acceptances...
The Holocaust didn't mean a lot to me until I visited Yad Vashem (I think that's how you spell it) Holocaust museum and memorial in Jerusalem. A few hours there and it really becomes real. It's the most affecting place I've ever been, that and Arlington Cemetary.
What's the book's title?
Mary S Lovell's The Mitford Girls is very good, giving an overview of the lot of them. For those who don't know their Mitfords, it shouldn't be forgotten that it wasn't the whole family which was into Fascism. Decca went completely the other way and became a civil rights activist in the States and Debo invested heavily in the local community and its welfare at Chatsworth. No ivory towers or exclusive class philosophies for those two wonderful women.
Anna
A friend's son, who is 16, was taken on a school trip to Auschwitz a few months ago. He told me shamefacedly that he had to remind a couple of his mates to take their iPods off, as they went through the gates. Not much chance that the parents of these kids might have encouraged them to watch that programme.
I think the most shocking thing about Diana Mosley was her (to my eyes at least) lack of remorse/regret/contrition in later interviews.
As you say, pre-war was another world, but she did appear to be an utterly despicable person.
In favour of the British of the time (although I don't think the same can be said of the Irish), I believe there was evidence (eg, refugee records) of significantly less anti-semitism than was the norm throughout Europe.
Davec
See also Oradour-sur-Glane in central France. Not an anti-Semitic attack, but as diabolical, and as moving as any other wartime atrocity.
I got to visit Buchenwald on a family holiday almost 30 years ago - and I can still vividly remember it, where other places from that trip are more blurred in my recollections. The Libeskind Jewish Museum in Berlin is rather astonishing as well.
As for the other point - I think it's evident that human nature is much more to follow than to lead, and that we are generally so grateful if our leaders can string two sentences together that we don't necessarily listen to exactly what they are saying.
We talk about this happening 70 years ago but more recently terrible crimes have occured in the former Yugoslavia "mainland civilised Europe etc." We need to be vigilant it's always just under the surface.
Doug, I agree about how well JS came over in the programme - and unless it was selective editing, it appears that he has a functioning knowledge of German as well, which suggests there's more to him than previous TV outings might have suggested.
And there was, as he himself observed, something of a happy ending, with the promise of a whole new branch of his family for him to learn about.
It was a good solid bit of TV, the only negative thing being that this sort of programme stands out as a beacon of effort and intelligence, whilst many other TV shows look a bit 'Ah, that'll do.'
J
Md, I can confirm that Andrew yaps on about the mitford sisters constantly. I wish he'd finish the fucking book though so we could have an end of it.
PS: Why not read my Lost In Austen Preview at http://talesfromanemptyroom.blogspot.com/
Mingles out
xxx
For the record:
Read:
The Mitfords: Letters Between Six Sisters, Edited by Charlotte Mosley
Hons & Rebels by Jessica Mitford
Nearly finished:
Diana Mosley by Anne De Courcy
Reading:
Decca: The Letters of Jessica Mitford, Edited by Peter Y Sussman
Unity Mitford: A Quest, by David Pryce-Jones
In the pile:
The House Of Mitford by Jonathan and Catherine Guinness
Love In A Cold Climate by Nancy Mitford
Love From Nancy: The Letters of Nancy Mitford, Edited by Charlotte Mosley
The Mitford Girls by Mary S. Lovell
It's such a big subject, it's hard to blog about, but I may attempt an overview soon. I haven't been this obsessed with a single subject since the New Yorker and the Arctic Monkeys.
fuck me. Surely you'll be being aproached quite soon by the makers of some C4 freak-show documentary.
'Andrew is 42 and needs someone to shop and clean for him as he hasnt left the house in two years due to his Mitford obsession ...'
If you're that obsessed then I insist you write a book on it.
Though I read this blog constantly I never normally leave a comment but I feel I need to this time. As terrible as the holocaust was and it was a great and moving programme last night I felt that Jerry Springer and some people on this blog are being a bit naïve when they ask how could the soldiers do this. Maybe I’m wrong and I know there were many soldiers who liked their job but at the same time many were just following orders. If put in the same position at the time where anti-Semitism was nearly accepted and the world was at war again, if you were in the same place as many of these people I don’t think many of us would have done much different than these soldiers or the civilians who ignored it. It is only the brave and few who stand up for what is right. At the same time in America the blacks were being lynched and I’m not putting these in the same categories but I felt that it appeared he sort of blamed the soldiers without fully examining why they may have committed these acts, and yes they are not innocent but I think people need to see it from a different view. There are many atrocities now days that we as civilians turn a blind eye to and they may not be as horrific in the same short period of time but we should consider it, and I do believe that there were Jews who also helped the Germans lead their fellow men to death, though this may be inaccurate. I felt this just needed to be said, having made my point I think the programme was one of the best who do you think you are? And it was very upsetting, though heart warning when he found more of his family alive in Israel.
Whoever just posted a long comment about the Holocaust but didn't put a name to it, would you mind letting me know who you are (a pseudonym is fine), so I can publish your comment, which is a valid contribution. I just don't like Anonymous comments, as it's unnecessary and lends a kind of unintended sinister tone to the post.
Makes you wonder how Patsy Kensit would have reacted, doesn't it? Given her tendency to blub uncontrollably about the lives of even the most distant relatives, faced with something like this, she would probably implode.
Hi Andrew,
If the "Anonymous" post was a long one about Victor Klemperer ... that was me.
Glad to get the podcast back - when do we get your thoughts on Professional Masterchef?
Robert
That was me with the long comment but now i dont no how to put my name to the comment.
Emma, thanks for revealing your identity. It helps. (You only need to "sign" the end of the post if you don't want to fill in a name on the form.)
I started reading Hitler's Willing Executioners which was really illuminating on the "just following orders/turning a blind eye" issue. I must pick it up and finish it. When I've read the other 20 Mitford books.
Robert, I don't know what happened to your Klemperer post. I haven't seen that one. As for Professional Masterchef: rubbish. Totally unnecessary and counter to the spirit of the "brand". Who cares about professionals? It's like having professional ballroom dancers or professional conductors. I watched the first show and took off my Sky+ series link straight afterwards.
FYI the episode is on Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cugiy97p3Xo&feature=related
for those of us outside the UK unable to access the iPlayer
Emma - Springer actually made a similar point to you when he heard his cousin (who had lived in pre-War Germany until she was 10) saying how she was abused by her teachers. Jerry stopped her and clarified that no one made them do this, no one forced their hand, they just came out and decided that it was okay to call a little girl a filthy jew and not by her name. People blame Hitler and attempt to excuse other people, but Springer was having none of that. All Hitler's fault? Not that simple.
I thought it was an excellent programme, and profoundly moving as it forced me to contemplate what is really very recent history, and yet so awful to contemplate.
Speaking of holocaust memorials, I was tremendously moved by the one in Vienna. Understated, but given the location and the dominant role that Jews had traditionally played in the city's history, very poignant.
ST
Episode seems to have been pulled from Youtube, due to copyright infringement. Pity.
Mingles, Andrew does the talking heads shows, like a Bank Holiday Monday three-hour special: Your 50 Best Mitfords.
Go on Mr C. It'd be brilliant.
And as we're on the holocaust and books, I recommend some Primo Levi.
Anna
Or what about a six-part series presented by Andrew on his favourite obsession, mass murderers?
Or perhaps 1970s disaster movies? ;-)
Quite happy to admit I enjoy watching Andrew on telly, regardless of what he's on.
Or even : I love the 1930's
I've just watched this. What an incredibly moving programme. I had tears in my eyes through most of it.
We've had 70 years to learn from this but we haven't learned a thing have we? Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Darfur, Zimbabwe. And those in power either sit back and do nothing or exploit these atrocities to their own ends.
I'm ashamed to be human sometimes.
Deb Holt
I visited Belsen. It was very moving. They say that no birds fly over the site. I didn't see or hear one bird the day I was there. (iPods not invented at the time, although families were respectfully quiet as they walked round the mass graves, each one marked with a number for the amount of bodies buried under the memorial. Haunting.)
I lived very near Belsen when I was much younger. Very true about the no birds thing, which was very eerie. Also, on damp days, there was a really strange smell - of death, I expect. :-/
Very upsetting.
Me and my partner watched this with our daughters who are nine, we all had tears in our eyes. I was worried sick that it would give them nightmares and did question whether I was right to let them watch it, but it was so compelling, and as per the comment above, if a little girl of eight can be called a 'dirty Jew' or remorselessly murdered, I'd like them to know that. It was interesting to read that in a recent filming of Who Do You Think You Are, Kevin Whately reportedly 'refused to be manipulated' by the production team and 'wouldn't cry' as he traced his family in the North East, I thought it was the opposite with Springer - he had to cry. I also think that it's easy to sneer at his 'chat show' work but he has always come across as a decent 'people person' to me - especially on ahem, America's Got Talent where he seemed to have a much more pleasant and respectful demeanour than certain other reality shows where the aim is to take the piss out of the deluded contestants as much as possible for all our enjoyment.
My brother tried to visit a lesser known camp in Germany once, and not one of the locals would help him to find it. The bus driver of the bus that went right past the entrance said he'd never heard of it. I'm not sure what exactly that says, but it does suggest a numbing wall of shame so extreme that many people simply cannot accept it actually happened.
I saw the end of the programme and again, felt that thing: that one should be forced to bear witness, again and again to the victims of obscene events. And JS certainly appeared to be a victim to me. His roots, so it seemed, wiped out. Unbearable. What struck me was how - not cathartic as such but the word eludes me, but: the important and excellent keeping of the railway station, and one of the trains. How desperately important it would be for people trying to find out what happened to their family, so gather a sense of what they went through.
I have always shied away from the thought of seeing one of those camps myself. I don't think I could cope, but now I have kids, I think I might push myself to show them what happened.
Given JS's 'generally' good humoured response to Stewart Lee & Richard Thomas's "The Opera", I already had a sneaking suspicion he was an alright sort of bloke. Very good of him to agree to be involved in something he obviously knew was going to be a terrible journey for him.
By the way, all (and our resident Mitford-sisters reading host): recommended book:
The Dark Valley: A Panorama of the 1930s by Piers Brendon. You can pick it up pretty cheaply on Amazon. It looks a bit of a tome, but it's by a long chalk the best 'grown up' history book I've read. Completely gripping and fascinating. Goes some way to answering the question someone asked about "Wasn't the whole of europe acquiescing" (or something like that). Ans: not by a long chalk.
As usual, long comment, sorry!
On a Mitford note - there was a programme on channel 5 a month or so ago - trying to claim that Unity Mitford was infact pregnant with Hitlers child and that she did have a child before she killed herself... although with any documentary of this sort (ie channel 5) their was no real evidence, only circumstantial points (which I don't have time to go through)...
Hello Andrew and hello to everyone else. Very interesting thread going on here - hopefully it's okay for my response to concentrate on Jerry Springer, 'the man', as opposed to his emotional visit to Poland. The unmitigated crassness of Springer's televisual output (e.g. the lowest common denominating 'chat show', 'America's Got Talent') distracts people from the fact that this man is extremely intelligent and actually has something to say. A good example of how interesting Springer is as an individual can be found in a piece embedded within an episode of 'This American Life' (one of the greatest radio shows/podcasts ever...apart from Andrew's of course :)
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1013
Cheers,
Derek
I heard the This American Life episode a while ago about Springer's pre 'show' life. It was quite a depressing story: a once idealistic politician, almost like a Kennedy or Obama, sort of fell into the TV show by accident, and it was clearly it was something he had very mixed feelings about. Seeing the WDYTYA? allowed us a glimpse of the real Jerry, which his TV show had glossed over for so long. Good use of Mulholland Drive soundtrack, too.
Separate point: some of those Mitford sisters were real hotties in their time.
Hi Wowser. I think it's a simple case of Springer making a Faustian pact, on an intellectual level he's not happy with the way things have gone for him, but on a financial level, well that's another story completely. As the old joke goes 'No flys on Jerry, if there were they'd be paying rent".
I notice that Mr. Collings is really into the Mitford sisters. I read a book about them a few years ago, that Unity Mitford was hardcore huh? Ja.
Yeah. It was a shame his recent attempt to return to politics didn't go to plan. He's certainly a decent chap.
I know fuck all about the Mitford sisters, apart from what I've read here, but I must say that it's whetted my appetite. Might just pop over on to Amazon to see if I can pick anything up second hand.
They're sexy, Doug. I can tell you that for free. The sexiest Nazis since Ralph Fiennes' squeeze in Schindler's List
Do it Doug, do it. A second hand Mitford is better than no Mitford at all I suppose :) *goes to bookcase* *comes back from bookcase* the Mitford book that I have is called 'The Sisters - The Saga of the Mitford Family' and is really interersting from what I remember about it. Do it Doug, do it :)
Hi Wowser, speaking of the Nazis and Rayyfffe, did you ever see the flick 'Sunshine'? It's one of them Euro-epics with Rayyyfffe playing multiple roles, does a good job too. Random as usual just sparked that thought in reading your post.
Done it, Derek B. Done it. Ordered a copy of Letters Between Six Sisters.
Ah, not the Danny Boyle film, I see. I'm afraid not, then. Among the cast list - Adolf Hitler playing.. himself!
Can I recommend Philip Roth's 'The Plot Against America' to anyone who's interested in the period and not found it yet (it's a WW2 'what if' novel centring around a New Jersey Jewish family). I'm still grateful to Andrew for pointing me in the direction of Philip K Dick's 'Man in the High Castle' on this blog, and want to spread the joy.
DaveC
Well for me the starting point for all things Mitford (a fascinating bunch, agreed) must be Luke Haines' song 'The Mitford Sisters' on his album Das Capital.
Never been able to get through one of Nancy Mitford's novels though.
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